• Overview
o It is finally delivered! Sedan Duck #1 (Umiak) the prototype is done. I think this will be a very successful model for Seahorse. Here is my quick review for the first week that I spent on it(4 nights on the hook with my family). First I LOVE IT! It is a great boat, very well built and designed. It functions and handles very well (no rough weather testing yet). My wife and kids love it and we had a wonderful but short week out in the South Puget Sound area. The short review is that it is an excellent coastal cruising boat, Seahorse outdid themselves as did Capital City Yachts (Allan, Cindy, John, Mike and crew), who helped with the delivery. I have a greater appreciation now for what a good dealer can do to help a buyer. With only a few days notice they had the people ready to fix the few initial glitches that needed to be resolved, step the mast, clean the boat and a variety of other items. Thanks again to everybody at Capital City Yachts (CCY), it is a great team.
• Receipt
o Shipping
 Seahorse handled most of the details on this process. They set-up the insurance, shipping paperwork and prepared all the spares and parts that I had requested. All of this was done on short notice with no errors or omissions. Thanks to Stella and everybody involved. My boat came over on COSCO and was lucky to have a position where almost no soot landed on it. I did end up with some greasy footprints on the upper deck which is requiring some elbow grease to get rid of. The boat showed up about ½ day later than planned and the whole process was about 2 hours to prep the boat and get it in the water.
 Mike from CCY and myself took the chase boat out in the water to get on Umiak once it was in the water. We had double checked the batteries and fuel valving while she was on deck and the Iveco started up pretty quickly after it chewed through a little air that had developed in the fuel lines, no bleeding required. After resolving a cable shifting issue (the transmission cable from the flybridge probably has a kink in it, fairly simple repair, so we disconnected it to use the boat), we were off for the first night in Elliot bay and then down to Olympia the next day, about 10 hours. Sitting in the pilot house with the heater on enjoying the scenery the commissioning trip was off to a great start.
• Handling
o First the boat is VERY stable, there wasn’t any rough weather but you can still tell there is a lot of initial stability to this boat due to hull shape, weight and center of gravity. Once you get a good feel for center (hard to do on a hydraulic system) she steers very well with very limited and infrequent helm input. A rudder position indicator is very helpful with hydraulic steering with multiple stations as you can’t tell where center is.
• Docking
o Docking starboard side in, greatly preferred on the Sedan, is a piece of cake. With the proper prop walk and the bow thruster you can really very easily put this boat exactly where you want to. (Bow thruster is a must option, though she handles very predictably without it.) My wife docked it for the first time in a slip with a big boat to one side and a strong breeze coming off the dock, it went perfectly well. One thing that would be good is a spring cleat just aft of the starboard gangway. Using the one forward of it means that you have a line that crosses right in front of the entrance and is a real trip hazard. Other than that there are plenty of cleats to use.
• Ground tackle
o The ground tackle system works very well. You have to prep the anchor by pushing it out a little after that it will self launch. With a snubber attached it was pretty quiet at anchor, without the snubber you hear way more than you want to. I used the CQR that was provided by Seahorse but I plan to switch to the Rocna as the primary anchor.
• Performance
o With the engine at 1,800 rpm the boat ran at 6.4 knots and consumed just below 2GPH. Drop to 5 knots and the consumption drops to 1GPH, at 6.9 knots consumption is closer to 3 gallons per hour (this is under calm conditions). There was always a current present so these numbers may be a little off in terms of SOW but the ratio holds true. In terms of sound levels at 1,800 RPM I recorded 68db in the saloon, 66 in the Pilot House, 67 in the master and 64 in the V-Berth. The engine room was 105. I have carpet in my saloon and PH and it appears to reduce sound levels by 2 db. I do have a mild prop sing in the 1,200 to 1700 rpm range. I may look at putting on a new propeller and keeping the existing one as a spare. It is a minor issue but I would like to have a spare anyway so it would be a good way to remove this.
• Rigging
o The standing rigging is very stout. The fittings were the proper size and should last for some time. I did not sail the boat at all, not priority for this first trip. I will switch to a hanked on fore sail as I don't like the roller furling system that was included, just not reliable enough or easy to use. A hanked on sail at this size is very easy to use and quick to stow when needed.
• V-berth
o We have the 2 bunk option with one set of bunks that converts to a couch. I prefer the bunk set-up in the v-berth as it allows for more people to sleep when needed and as I have kids it is a lot better than a queen on center. Plus you best headroom is in the center so berths outlying is the right way to go. I’m not sure if I will use the convertible couch here or not but it doesn’t hurt me to have it set-up that way.
• Dingy lifting system
o I lift my dinghy with a winch attached to the boom. It works very easily and I can take the dinghy in from either side. I remove the engine before I do this and store the engine on the lower deck. I find that getting people on the starboard door works very well, there is very little motion here and it is at just the right height.
• Flopper Stopper retrieval system
o It should work fine from what I can see. I didn’t test this as it wasn’t a priority on the first trip.
• Single bath/shower
o Even with 9 people on board, (last night at anchor my sister and kids showed up) this set-up works fine. Personally, I think 2 heads is a waste of space but I do understand why people like them. I prefer the shower separate from the head. This set-up works well.
• Pilot house
o I like having the pilot house separate from the eating area. The sedan version functions well and with a little movement you have pretty good visibility.
• Galley
o Very nicely done, good layout and good spacing. There are dozens of ways to handle this space and I’m sure we will find some areas would like to be different, such are the trade off in boats. The transformer/fridge seems to pull an average of 4-5 amps when running.
• Saloon
o We love this space, very large and wide open with a very nice and big eating area. It is a good use of space. We have a convertible settee to starboard, a very nice option, that we already used for visitors. I’m not a fan of the chair concept on boats, I know these big boats feel like a home inside but to me furniture should still be bolted down rather firmly. Plus it is hard for two guest sleep on a chair or me to take a nap sitting up. Oh, don’t get the hardest foam they have for mattresses or cushions. It is too hard.
• Aft cockpit
o This is really a very nice space and I love the folding swim platform. There is more than enough room to have a couple people working back here and the folding platform (built like a tank) makes it feel more shippy and less yachty, which I like. Granted for stern docking the built-in swim step is nice and I’m sure people will appreciate it. The lazarette is huge (I’m going to modify it to allow for storage of smaller items). The propane storage was a little of an afterthought and not executed well. I will have this redone here.
• Engine room
o This is a very big space. You can easily have 4 people down here discussing the equipment, which happened on more than a few occasions and access is very good to all systems. I’m very pleased. I can sit up and rotate without hitting my head, this is a hands and knees space, and Seahorse did a very good job keeping the ceiling free of sharp corners and head bangers. Even on an 80 degree day the engine room stayed under 90 degrees during operation, without the blowers on, very good performance. I do not have access to the engine room from the master cabin and don’t want it. I don’t think it is a good idea or necessary. It will take up valuable space, doesn’t serve much of a purpose that I can discern, costs more and will increase sound transmission to the master cabin. BTW it is VERY easy to quickly access the engine room through the saloon sole.
• Steering system
o Very well built and I expect it to be reliable. I ordered the completely redundant auto-pilot which I believe to be a very smart option as if you lose one fitting in the primary system you will lose all steering and auto-pilot functions. However, the back-up is completely redundant (separate brain, controller, hydraulic system, pump and ram) so I feel pretty confident that I won’t lose steering. A rudder position indicator should be added to the dash on these boats.
• Charging system
o After the engine and steering system you don’t get more important than this. I think the wiring could be simplified and still keep the functionality. Having said that once I learned the specifics I find the system to be easy to operate. The victron will max out at about 50amps charging and the alternator seems to peak at 30. It should go higher than that, an issue on other boats, so I will have to look into that. The battery monitor needed programming as it kept showing my bank as needing charging even when I was sitting at 25.5 volts. I’m pretty sure it thinks I have a smaller bank than I do, Seahorse installed a 500ah bank. The generator works great and I have no other issues with the charging system other than figuring out why the alternator is only putting out a peak amperage of 30.
• The boat is GREAT! People that go on it love it and I truly believe Seahorse has unique opportunity now to sell a lot of these boats. I love the 462 and it is clearly a better boat for repeated open ocean crossings, however for rugged and reliable coastal work with periodic crossings the sedan is hard to beat and you do get more boat for your buck. Though I wouldn’t be surprised if Seahorse starts to charge more for the Sedan than the 462. I strongly encourage people that aren’t gung ho on going to China and supervising the construction of their own boat to contact CCY, there is a lot of value there that makes the cost difference not what it may appear to be at first blush.
I’ll try and post some photos soon.


I'm of course biased but Umiak is a beautiful and unique boat. It really feels like home, a long time coming.

Hugh

Congratulation .

I appreciate the information you have given on you ship .

I hope you will post photosgraphe .

your's

Jacques Doucet

Hugh, Thanks for the excellent description of your new boat. Congratulations. I would also love to see some pics. Your docking description was helpful in answering my questions which I just posted about ease of getting it in the slip.

Michael

Hugh:

On Thursday afternoon, Patty and I finished a week long charter (Anacortes Yacht Charters) on a 40-foot Selene. On Friday, we were able to link up with the good people (Allan & Scott) at Capital City Yachts to view your new boat. What a difference from the Selene ! ! ! ! ! ! It is no wonder you love it. I was really impressed by the quality of work and can only imagine the number of man hours that had to go into the results achieved. Seahorse really delivered. You obviously put a lot of thought into your design choices – and your color choices were perfect. Congratulations and please keep us posted on your adventures.

Ken & Patty Sebby
Boise, Idaho

Ken and Patty,


Thanks. It is a great boat and Seahorse did a great job on it. I'm glad you were able to get a tour.


Hugh

Just a quick update on Umiak. I'm going to focus more on possible improvements for the boat than another list of what I love (which is still the longer of the two). Having said that from what I can see the big items work very well and from my experience to date on my boat there really are only one or two things that should have been done in a different fashion. Everything else goes from completely adequate to great, which on a vessel this complicated and soundly built seems pretty good to me.

All of our use has been on the Southern Puget Sound so pretty calm water all in all.

Main Issues:

1. Condensation. On the whole the boat does well. There are two main problem areas that need attention. First there is not enough insulation on the v-berth (hull) walls so they condense moisture and it runs onto the berths. 2nd the windows in the pilot house condense a ton of water which runs into the wood frame and because the frames pitche forward pools of water build up, up to an inch deep. This WILL in a VERY SHORT period of time damage the wood here. This was with the heater running and the cabin pretty warm. Either these frames should not be wood at the bottom and/or they should have some type of drain. Possible having the heater vent blow directly on the windows could help.

I had an insulated cover made for the hatch over the v-berth as this acts like a shower in cold weather if not well insulated. Also, if possible the doors themselves should have some insulation inside them, they would function better.

2. Fuel polishing system. I know that my system was implemented in a fashion that is not standard for Seahorse, I don't know the history on this. I find the pump system to be too small for proper filtration but the main issue has to do with the location of pick-up. For my boat the pick-up for the engine and the polishing filter are the same. This is a basic design flaw as the filter pick-up should be below the engine pick-up and be as low as possible. This way you can get water and dirt as it accumulates before it can reach the engine pick-up. There is not enough turbulence in this system to rely on that to stir everything up and polish offline. Also, if possible the return should on the opposite end of the tank.

Having said this the system as installed is clearly an improvement over nothing. I understand this system is different on the later sedans. I would just encourage that the system have a lower pick-up than the engine.

Minor Issues/Comments:


1. Handling and docking. Nothing to update here. She is very easy to dock and handles well without the bow thruster. However, I still consider the thruster a must have option as it takes most of the drama out of close quarters maneuvering.



2. Electronics. I still have quite a few electronic bugs with the compass and the GPS. The cause of this has not been determined yet. This has prevented either auto-pilot from working properly. Quite a few hours with specialists have not yet resolved the issue, though I expect we will soon. The 12" E series is definitely a better choice than the 8" E or C series. Though I don't think that Raytheon is currently the best choice on the market it certainly is more than satisfactory.

3. Ground tackle The standard set-up from the yard works very well. I would recommend that a stainless rub strip is added on the bow section as the snubber line coming out of the port or starboard rubs the rub rail and will remove the paint over time. There are too many edges and angles to reliably run the snubber through the bow in my opinion. This is really a minor issue the system works great.

One important note. We purchased, and use as our primary anchor, a 40kg Rocna. Unlike the CQR this anchor launches and stores very well from the bow and sets much more reliably. I have used CQRs exclusivly as my primary for years. They hold well once set but can really fight setting in the first place. The Rocna sets quickly and holds well. It handles change of set direction on the hook very well. I agree with earlier posters that the CQR that comes with the boat is too small. Also, I think its angles are not quite right as it seems to drag more easily that I'm used to. I strongly recommend the Rocna not just because of how well it sets and holds but also because it works very well with the bow set-up on the Ducks.

4. Floppers and Sail Rigs--No real chance to use these yet. I'll update when I have some useful information.

5. Galley. I'm very happy with the layout we have, close to the seahorse standard. We used some of the extra space in the salon (later sedans will have less) to widen the galley. I'm a fan of this as my wife and I often cook together, the narrower layout is fine for one person but is a little tight for two. However, either layout will work very well.

6. Fridge. In hindsight I should have chosen the DC fridge system. The AC unit works very well by itself but the additional transformer and switching is an unnecessary complication.

7. Dinghy. The raise and lower system works fine. The padeye for the mainsheet is too far forward so you cant use the sail when there is an engine on the dinghy. I'm sure this will get resolved on the later boats as this is a prototype issue more than anything else.

8. The shower and head drains don't have traps on them as they drain to the grey water tank. Since the galley sink drains to the grey water tank it develops quite a nasty odor (BTW the galley sink should have the option of draining straight overboard). So since there is not liquid trap between the shower drain, head drain and the grey water tank quite a nasty odor can, and does, flow into the head and the V-Berth. What I try and do is cover this up to prevent it but a p-trap would be a more reliable solution.

9. Charging system. This is a very well designed and built system. The 500ah house bank is sufficient in size but I would not go smaller and bigger could have some plusses. Both the Victron and the Balmar needed to be reprogrammed as they both had the limit function turned on that controlled the output too low. One issue is that the house alternator will functinaly peak around 50 amps. It is very easy to use 20plus when running with electronics on so the power to the bank can be in the mid 20s. If you are replacing 200ah this is a very slow process. A very simple fix is to use the combiner from balmar that lets both the engine alternators send power to the house bank with a small isolated stream to the engine bank. This would cause about 50amps to go to the house bank, a much more reasonable rate.

10. Steering: All these boats need rudder angle display indicators at each helm. This is part of the upgraded auto-pilots or as an add-on for the standard auto-pilot. I would strongly encourage this. Since the helm has not feedback it is very easy to not know where the rudder is. Plus these boats respond slowly to small helm changes (a good thing) but since you can't feel what center is you can easily worry the helm too much.

I'll post more soon but I wanted to put something up. We love the boat and are VERY confident at taking it to remote areas. Our first big trip will be this summer to north of Vancouver Island. We are very excited.


Hugh

Hugh,

Great post and thanks for letting us all share in the experiences with your "baby". I am sure SHM appreciates getting constructive real world feedback on their products.

From the cruising we did in our current boat up past Bella Bella, BC in Summer 2007, we know that condensation can be a real problem in the damp PNW. Between multiple bodies on board respiring, cooking with propane and 100% relative humidity outside, it is a challenge to keep water from condensing on the inside of single pane windows. Our defroster vents do blow directly on the forward slanting helm windows and they would clear them of condensation but water still pooled at the base of the windows when no defroster air was blowing. Your trip in Summer 2009 ought to give you ample opportunity to try venting strategies.

We anxiously await your experiences with deploying and retrieving the paravanes and reiterate our offer to crew should you find yourself short-handed on one of your visits to your boat.

Best regards,

Marcia & Kurt Hanson
SD462-04 (currently unnamed)

Hugh
Thanks for the report. There is a remedy to number eight. The shower and sink, drain directly into the sump tank and there is an odor following the drain hose back into the living space. Actually the sump tank is equiped with a float switch that should be several inches off the bottom. When this switch is activated the pump comes on discharging the water until the switch cuts it off. At this time there should be several inches of grey water left in the tank. The drain hoses should extend into the two inches of water creating a trap and preventing the odor from coming back into the living space. Sometimes the installers of systems like these think that if they get the hose over the edge of the tank opening so the water ends up in the tank then it is okay. If this is in fact the problem replace the entire hose and to ensure the end reaches the bottom, cut it at an angle and let it touch the bottom of the sump tank.
Next week I will report on our new settee covers with pictures.
Randal

quote:

Originally posted by Ruth & Randal Johnson:
Hugh
Thanks for the report. There is a remedy to number eight.
Randal

Thanks for the suggestion. My tank does not have a float switch just a pump that is turned on or off. I will check on the drain hoses as that would help. I could lenghthen them and raise the pump pick-up so the drains stay below the surface. I will look into that.


Hugh

Marcia and Kurt,


I will be out again in March and will make sure to test the floppers then. It has been very hectic when we are there and basically we buy supplies and head out the next day to get as much time on the water as we can. I will definately give you a buzz if there is time to have you come down and get some time on the water.

The biggest issue with condensation is that there is no drain there and the wood will most certainly be damaged. It is an easy thing for the yard to continue to overlook as it is not part of the primary operations but it would be good if a solution can be found.

I do hope that your fuel filtration system piping is improved over what is in Umiak. I will mostly likely modify this at some point.


Hugh

Hugh -

Our fuel management system is even more convoluted than yours since we have four fuel tanks (keel tank under master, two saddle tanks and one tank in swim step). We're viewing the "plumbing" as a fuel transfer system rather than polishing.

We are thinking that we'll designate one tank (probably the keel tank) as a "day tank". And only put fuel in it that has been transferred from another tank through the Gulf Coast. Additionally, we have received a commitment from SHM to put in Racor 900's (extra cost, though) rather than the 500's on your boat. Those ought to give us more capacity to handle bad fuel should we be so unfortunate.

quote:

Originally posted by Marcia & Kurt:
Hugh -

Our fuel management system is even more convoluted than yours since we have four fuel tanks (keel tank under master, two saddle tanks and one tank in swim step). We're viewing the "plumbing" as a fuel transfer system rather than polishing.

We are thinking that we'll designate one tank (probably the keel tank) as a "day tank". And only put fuel in it that has been transferred from another tank through the Gulf Coast. Additionally, we have received a commitment from SHM to put in Racor 900's (extra cost, though) rather than the 500's on your boat. Those ought to give us more capacity to handle bad fuel should we be so unfortunate.

That is a good idea. It is important if possible to still be able to polish the day tank directly as this tank can still grow algae and condense water. Simply having the yard add one additional npt fitting to the top above the low spot would allow you to add a tube that could pull fuel/water/gunk from the low spot later. This is harder to do once it has fuel in it of course.

The 900s are also a good idea and it is reasonable to pay more for them. Just having a double system is a good idea. I have drained water more than once from mine.

Hugh

quote:

It is important if possible to still be able to polish the day tank directly as this tank can still grow algae and condense water. Simply having the yard add one additional npt fitting to the top above the low spot would allow you to add a tube that could pull fuel/water/gunk from the low spot later. This is harder to do once it has fuel in it of course.

I agree, it would be preferred if the fuel system were designed from the beginning for effective polishing. Since the tanks are one of the first things fabricated and installed when the boats are built I think we are past that point.

Fortunately, in the cool NW climate, algae is not a common problem. Condensation can be mitigated by keeping tanks fairly full. Of course, time will tell whether I change my tune on this topic.

quote:

the windows in the pilot house condense a ton of water which runs into the wood frame and because the frames pitche forward pools of water build up, up to an inch deep. This

HI

The windows on a DD are single pane type safety glass . I may be corrected on this .

I suggest changing the windows to a double pane type

http://www.gebomarineglazing.nl/uk/raam_intro.asp


You have a very nice ship


JD

I considered the bigger Racors as well but was not convinced that my Deere would flow enough to generate sufficient turbulence. As we all know bigger is better. Is engine fuel flow a factor?

The Walbro fuel pump is really a fuel transfer pump and one needs far higher flow for a skookum polishing system. This is a mission critical part and while rated at 18000 hours I carry a spare. Note that there is a small internal filter that needs to be cleaned.

Hi...Sounds like you are having fun with your new sedan!!!..thanks for all the interesting reading...things have been quiet on Ducktalk for awhile....interested in comments re condensation....on ICE we fitted heated glass in the three forward Pilothouse windows...read VERY expensive!!...and on all the other windows we will make simple clear acrylic inner windows that will fit the outside of the teak frames like the insect screens of the deck hatches...( there will be a couple of inches of air between them....they don't have to be air tight and we will only fit them in the arctic/antarctic or areas of extreme cold when Condensation is a problem...Quick & easy to fit , easy to store,you still get all the light and you will get no condensation on the glass and virtually none on the acrylic...it works well on all the Antarctic yachts.

Still have not had a chance to use Ice yet..too many other projects ...but will soon...all the best.

Don and Margie,

Thanks for the comments. I am planning on trying the thin plastic shrink covering that is often used in homes over teh windows that don't open or I'm not planning to open. you put on tape, stick the plastic sheeting to it and then use a hair dryer to stretch it flat. This was also suggested by Dean. I'll post the results.

This should certainly help with the forward facing windows.

I find condensation is variable depending upon the number of people sleeping in that boat. Basically all the moisture being condensed is from cooking or breathing so visitors do increse this. I use the exhaust fan when cooking to minimize this problem with some success.

Hugh

Hugh:

I have just joined the forum. We have recently initiated a conversation with Seahorse about commissioning a DD Sedan similar to yours. Your posts are just fantastic for insights into the purchase of a new boat. Since your last post was two years ago, is there any possibility of yet another update? I think a lot of us in the forum would be interested.

Hi

I hope you get the ship of you dream Jonathan


Congradulation

Jacques

quote:

2nd the windows in the pilot house condense a ton of water which runs into the wood frame and because the frames pitche forward pools of water build up, up to an inch deep

An easy fix would be to drill a small hole in each frame and insert a small copper tube - epoxy it into position. Let these small tubes drain into one of the grey water tanks or directly overboard.