Me head stinks, me head thinks, it must be something me eats or drinks.

Before you take another breath open this web site and read pages five through nine for all the sanitation education you’ll ever need. The first four pages deal with laws governing marine sanitation.
http://www.boatbuilding.com/article.php/MarineSanitationFactvsFolklore
Good, now you can breath. It was written by Peggy Hall the “Head Mistress” When I found it I recognized her name from contributions to the Trawlerworld List. She never looses an argument about boat sanitation.
When we left the yard we had a terrible odor on the boat especially in the front cabin, sometimes it was worse than others. If you raised the hatch in the sole it would knock your head off. I thought it was the fact that the hoses used in plumbing the toilets to the holding tanks, the tank drain, and the vents were clear and not labeled “sanitation” Hull # 2 was having the same problem and was in the process of changing it to white hose specified for that purpose.
While we were still in Hong Kong I tried to buy enough white hose to replace ours when we got to Subic Bay. The problem was the hose from the head to the tank was 1 ¼” and was not available anywhere I looked. Everyone had 1 ½” hose.
When we got to Subic Bay, I had Ray Wolfe order sanitation hose from West Marine, stateside. The hose we got was made by Shields and has VAC XHD series 148 printed on it. It cost $3.29 per foot and though it is white the invoice list it as “Hose-Bilge”. We installed it and all was well, I thought. Within a few weeks the odor reappeared and upon checking I found it was coming from the hose.
I emailed West Marine and explained what had happened and to my surprise they offered to ship me free of charge their best sanitation hose. The issue was it was only available in 1 ½ “. I told them I would take them up on their offer and figure out a way to use it. We received it Saturday. Their invoice describes it as “Hose-Waste Super #10” Their model # is 159186 and the manufacturer’s number is 116-101-1120. The hose itself is black, very heavy duty and has Shields Sanitation Hose By Tuder Italy. Their web site shows this hose at over $8.00 per foot. Yesterday and today we installed the new hose in both heads and because the access holes for the hoses were cut to accommodate 1 ¼“, I had to enlarge them all, what a job.
But, if you read the article by Peggy Hall above you already know this might not be the end of the story. I’m sure the original hose is not as resistant to odor permeation as the hose we just installed but some of the problem can be attributed to the fact that the black water tanks are above the toilets. The advantage of this is it is not necessary to have an additional pumping system to empty the holding tanks, just open a valve. But this also means each time you flush the toilet the sewage is pumped into the hose and it in turn pushes out the sewage into the holding tank from the previous flush leaving the hose full all the time. This is going to be difficult for any hose to handle.
There is something about this boat that is different from all the others. The holding tank is high on the port side of the front cabin but the forward head is on the starboard side, (my design). The hose from the toilet to the tank is twenty feet long. That’s a lot of manure.
The before and after buttons furnished with the Tecma toilets have an adjustment on the backside that control the length of time the solenoid stays open letting water into the toilet. Before we left the yard and thinking only of water conservation, I turned that adjustment to its lowest setting. This means with every flush there is less water to wash through the hose adding to the concentration of the sewage. Obviously any hose is going to be more subject to odor permeation with sewage standing in it rather than clear water or just air in the case of the holding tank being lower than the toilet.
As soon as I read Peggy’s article I adjusted it to let more water into the bowl. We could tell that it helped. We had decided before West Marine’s offer that we would try double flushing in order to fill the hose with fresh water and we may have to do that yet. I even emailed Tecma and suggested they incorporate a double flush option feature in their controls, they didn’t respond.
So here is my advice. Use the best sanitation hose you can get and if you still have odors double flush the toilet. Also after reading the article, enlarging the size of the vent hose might be advisable. I’ll let everyone know in a couple of weeks how the hose smells.
Another thing I wish I had added is holding tank monitors. We have to guess when they are full and if you underestimate, sewage is pumped out the vent with such force it will do a pretty good job of washing the salt off the boat next to you. The 462 aft tank vent comes out horizontally about five feet about the dock. If you time it just right you can knock a customs official off his feet. Of course you’ll never be heard from again.

Don,

Since I have the smaller 200gpd 24volt water maker I will definitely be a lot more concerned about too many flushes of the toilet than I would with a salt-water system!

And of course if the water maker were to fail. . .


Hugh

Good point ..but if you have a salt water leak you should fix it straight away...the toilet is not a pressure system...you actually have to suck the salt water to the toilet and for my pressure salt water wash at the bow for the anchor, I always close the salt water inlet in the engine room when finished, then open the tap on deck to let out the pressure....the paint systems should do the rest. I have struggled hard to make the whole of ICE accessable under soles and lockers so I can always see what is going on...and maintain those areas. If the boat can float in it the bilges can take a little bit....But fresh water toilets are all the flavour of the mounth...even the Nordhavn 56 MS has two fresh water dunnies!

While I'm still a fan(salt water manual toilet) seahorse's stated reason for using fresh water for the toilets and anchor wash is to minimize the amount of salt water inside a metal boat. A pretty reasonable goal in general.

Gee's Randal...you should have been a bloody comedian!...I laughed...infact over the last 35 years come to think of it I could write a book about toilet stories...the best I did was trying to blow out a blockage in a pipe with my mouth and the instant I started to blow I thought...BAD MOVE...it pressurised the pipe instantly ...I kept holding my breath not wanting to move the pipe away...but had to and the instant I did it blew back in my face....the story gets worse!!!

Anyway, I am a believer of salt manual toilets for Duck size boats and having seen all the problems in Australia with toilet hoses over the last 15years insisted on certified hose for ICE just as DD462-2 was having problems and now it is standard for SHM....I have fitted a diversion three way valve for the forward head so I can dump without going through the holding tank..or send it to the holding tank....unfortunately I could not set this up for the aft toilet which is electric fresh water, so will always have to go uphill to the holding tank and out..but we will use the forward toilet virtually all the time unless inconvienient...saves power and water....I have guages and alarms on both holding tanks and inspection ports...a must.

Then again I can't have anywhere near the fun trying to hit passers by on the marina...Bugger!

Salt water seems to make a lot more sense to flush to me as well. It has worked pretty well on every sail boat I've been on.


Hugh

quote:

Originally posted by George:

quote:

Originally posted by George:
Why not use RV holding tank treatment chemicals? They seem to work fine in that world. Of course a 20' line full of stuff is a separate issue. But, to deal with that, I've seen a small macerating pump hooked in line within 4' downhill of the head, then a 75' run of garden hose to a sewer, dealing with the result. This is all RV stuff but should work with a boat?
Oh, the RV chemical keeps the monitors semi functional but in time none seem really reliable. A sprinkler head sort of deal installed in the tank you can hook a garden hose to and blast out the thing is common in higher end RVs and is a big help.
For what that's worth!

George

AND, how come youse guys don't use SEAWATER to flush?

G.

Please consider urine diverting composting toilets. They are ODOR FREE. The old flush and stew in a holding tank is just loaded with pitfalls.

I know that this is not for everyone, it doesnt tend to generate much of a buzz, but it does represent an alternative.

Airhead toilets makes a fine model. They are not without their own issues, you still need to deal with your liquids, but they offer much greater flexibility and much, much more aesthetic quality if you can get past the institutionalized need to watch your business "swirl" out of site. These have been used for years on both coastal and world cruising vessels.

Best wishes in the New Year

Greg R.

quote:

Originally posted by George:
Why not use RV holding tank treatment chemicals? They seem to work fine in that world. Of course a 20' line full of stuff is a separate issue. But, to deal with that, I've seen a small macerating pump hooked in line within 4' downhill of the head, then a 75' run of garden hose to a sewer, dealing with the result. This is all RV stuff but should work with a boat?
Oh, the RV chemical keeps the monitors semi functional but in time none seem really reliable. A sprinkler head sort of deal installed in the tank you can hook a garden hose to and blast out the thing is common in higher end RVs and is a big help.
For what that's worth!

George

AND, how come youse guys don't use SEAWATER to flush?

G.

Why not use RV holding tank treatment chemicals? They seem to work fine in that world. Of course a 20' line full of stuff is a separate issue. But, to deal with that, I've seen a small macerating pump hooked in line within 4' downhill of the head, then a 75' run of garden hose to a sewer, dealing with the result. This is all RV stuff but should work with a boat?
Oh, the RV chemical keeps the monitors semi functional but in time none seem really reliable. A sprinkler head sort of deal installed in the tank you can hook a garden hose to and blast out the thing is common in higher end RVs and is a big help.
For what that's worth!

George

I think you will find in Peggy Hall's book that holding tanks need to be double vented like the engine room, with not only an air exhaust but also an air intake. The purpose of holding tank vents is not to equalize pressure like a water tank or gas tank which accordingly only require a single vent, but like the engine room, to have a fresh supply of oxygen.

The foul odours of excrement are created by the gases that are made by anaerobic bacteria. These bacteria live in the bowel where there is no oxygen supply. Most of these enteric bacterial species cannot survive in an oxygenated environment, i.e. fresh air. Notice that manure compost heaps, which must be kept well aerated in order to decompose waste, are sweet smelling.

So when one is fed up with the hassel of changing the hoses then one will have the tank and deck modified to have a dedicated intake vent. Note that aerators are made for holding tanks but I think that they cannot begin to do the job of a second air intake vent.

cheers,
Drassel

My last boat was a 52' West Coast Troller. KISS is the rule of the day in these machines, and ridgid 1 1/2 PVC/80 pipe was employed when practical. Flex unions, and strain relief is required, but it works great, price is right, and stink free. It is important to use PVC primer first and not just slop on the solvent/cement.

PVC sched 40/80, or DVW-ABS? Houses use ABS but the stuff today is like an Aero bar and not solid plastic. 8 USD /ft buys a lot of sched 80 PVC.

I agree with the PVC idea. Dan and Sally used all PVC for the waste lines on their boat, Balto. The difficulty is the PVC is rigid and must have straight runs.

In October, November, and December there have been discussions on the Trawlerworld List about this very subject and I think using schedule 40 PVC for plumbing drains, especially during the build, would be a great idea. During the build it could be installed, well supported and stress free. There might have to be some short runs of hose under the toilet for example so it could be lifted up before disconnecting. I've worked with PVC quite a lot and like it. Its cheap and easy to install.

I wonder if there is a high quality PVC pipe that can be used for most of the hose run? Should be cheaper than 8 bucks a foot.

Stinking heads have been the bane of my boating life, closely followed by the electrical gremlin

My Duck has 1 inch vent hoses, and holding tank monitors, so that is 2 of Randals issues addressed. It remains to be seem how reliable those monitors are.

Thanks for the hose comments, and from experience I have learned that changing these hoses is not a fun job.
You may wish to give each head a cup or two of vinegar every week.

Not much one can do about the hoses running uphill rather than double flush and a good thing that I got the 600 gal/day watermaker and enough inverter power to run it off the alternators.