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We are considering putting a rig on our DD44 now that the interior work is well along. I'm leaning toward the balanced rig with placement over the forward edge of the pilothouse or just in front of the pilothouse. One of the posts mentioned "ballast to specs" - was this experimentally determined or is there a formula? The mast we have organized is 40'long and heavy construction. If necessary to avoid adding ballast to our already hefty vessel (64,000 lbs) we could cut it down, but if she'll stand up to it OK we'd use it as is. Thanks for any comments or advice,
Ric [martini@maui.net] |
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I covered some things in the Typhoon story but a couple of specifics for the sailors or non sailors...even on wing engine or Rig??
If you are going to have sails the Rig needs to be ballanced if you want to use it as a get home rig...so if it is a chinese Junk rig or what ever, you need to be able to balance the presure on the hull fore and aft...then you may have a chance of getting somewhere. The other thing is to build your rig and size the equipment for heavy winds...then it will work in light and heavy.If you can afford it there are really good furling Booms and very reliable headsail furlers to make life easy. No wing engine is going to give you the same handling options in a storm, that a reasonable sailing rig will, if you loose your main engine. This is a huge plus for options if you are familiar with sailing. It is something that gives me great confidence in ICE knowing I could set the boat up to handle various sea states with or without an engine.I carry a towing Drogue but do not carry a Parachute anchor. If you can afford it Always use self tailing winches everywhere, as if you ever want to use it, you will want it to be self tailing and use some jambers to control extra lines. With the ketch rig on ICE I would estimate now that overall, our sailing preformance is about 50% of that expected from a 40ft cruising yacht under most conditions. I am more than Happy with that as a get home rig and a very usefull real world feature on a very good motor sailor. If you decide to go with a rig,Before you do anything about the rig on your Duck...try to organise a sail on a yacht at a local yacht club...sailors are all friendly...you will learn heaps and can make your own decisions. Pictures of ICE will be in the albums soon... Lifetime sailing including 1990 BOC Singlehanded Around World Race...many Antarctic sailing expeditions....lived together alone in a box in Antarctica for a year. |
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I seem to be all over this thread...anyway for those following the Rig situation ..an update....our Ketch Rig for 462-6 is completed in Australia and about to ship to Hong Kong...with furling main boom.Headsail reefing,very solid anodised built to Around the world quality...as we have done on all the boats we built, all Anderson SS self tailing winches etc it will cost us about AUST $70,000 landed in Hong Kong....not for the faint harted...still have to get sails etc...but I believe it will make the Duck a true Motor Sailor in conventional terms not unlike a Fisher 50 for those that know the boats....can't wait to go for the first sail.
We have built a permanent SS frame over the aft cockfit for an awning and the Mizzen sheet will come off this...also set up a triatic stay between main and mizzen and two running backstays on top of pilot house...just to be sure, Crows nest on the main mast and Flopper pole support brackets on the Mizzen...we run the flopper main stay to the mizzen spreaders rather than the mast head as I prefer the strength there. Lifetime sailing including 1990 BOC Singlehanded Around World Race...many Antarctic sailing expeditions....lived together alone in a box in Antarctica for a year. |
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Hi David/Elaine....Wow...have followed Vagabond for many years...great expeditions/boat....infact we considered another custom design/build but decided 462 was 90% of what we wanted at 50% the cost so signed up with Bill/Stella...now we are down the track with a great expedition boat which just happens to have a "five star" fit out thrown in...
Seahorse are now very focused on "production" building so I cannot say if they will do "special " mods, you will have to check, but my "ice" mods were double frames in the forward Cabin,SS bow doubler plate,ice fins for the prop, an ice knife for the rudder,SS four blade ice prop, 2nd SS ice rudder,lifting lugs to replace rudder/prop under water, keel cooler for generator to run with a tempory dry exhaust if frozen in the ice,removable ice restrictor for bow thruster,extra strong water deflector for anchor locker drain......that is an amazing part of these boats...the entire forefoot is filled with light concrete to make a massive battering ram! One of the big design compromises was a chine boat that "may" not squeeze out if pinned in the ice!...I May over winter in Antarctica one day...in a protected bay so should not be a problem....when in the Arctic we will just have to be very carefull...and we can always heel the boat to relieve pressure...certainly the structure is VERY solid... Seahorse have given us a beautifull fairing job ready for our RED paint job....If I planned to spend a lot of time in the Arctic crunching ice I would consider NO or absolute minimal fairing on the hull as that will make it easier to maintain....Bills paint jobs are great though. We have a Dickenson Antarctic heater with remote hot water heater pannel(refleks) in aft cabin ,Red dot heater in saloon,heated front pilot house windows 20mm thick,Diamond Sea-Glaze pilot house doors and Seaglaze ( England)water-tight doors below. Wind-Gen, Solar pannels and a manual saltwater flush toilet forward so we can run the boat without power...Big 2volt cell Batteries rated at 3500 cycles at 50% discharge...15/20year life...but they weigh 650kg! Force ten stove. One of the best things that happened to us was a very good friend, past sponsor, giving us a Stidd helm chair! a lot of money but I have spent a lot of time in them and others and there is nothing worse than many hours in a wobbly chair that you cannot adjust right or is uncomfortable...I have seen a lot of chairs replaced??...and I have an Aquasignal watch alarm within reach of the chair so the helmsman has to stay awake, or an alarm will wake him and Me! I will use a SKYEYE PRO satelite reciever for Downloading Sat images weather/ice/sea surface temp...this is the best around...coupled to Fax for weather routing etc...BGAN inmarsat for internet at anchor...and iridium ...also 2 mounted icom VHF to monitor boat/flying/field opps etc.Retractable ECHO-Pilot sonar, 2 ComNav Pilots,GPS Compass, Raymarine instruments, Fire flood in Fully watertight engine room with extra vents and pumps The ketch rig is just right for me and the Flybridge is awsome for the Reef or the ICE. I have a solid SS cockpit cover instead of the collapsible Bimini... Where do I stop.....Hope this helps! My email is icebound@ozemail.com.au if you need anything specific...my next visit is March 13 to 26th. Every boat is a compromise but I am very happy to start with a 462... Lifetime sailing including 1990 BOC Singlehanded Around World Race...many Antarctic sailing expeditions....lived together alone in a box in Antarctica for a year. |
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Hello Don... My wife and I were part of the support team (Communication Scientists)for Vagabond Polar Expedition.
http://www.vagabond.fr/vagabond My inquiry regarding your equipment list and pictures, if available, were intended to help finalize our personal plans to build a Diesel Duck for our northern latitude adventures. "The present is big with the future." David & Elaine Palmer
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Hi David....I have lists for Africa but happy to share them ....do you mean the things ordered from Seahorse extras list??...or??? I will try for some photo's shortly....
Lifetime sailing including 1990 BOC Singlehanded Around World Race...many Antarctic sailing expeditions....lived together alone in a box in Antarctica for a year. |
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"A picture is worth a thousand words." What can be done to encourage more pictures on DuckTalk. I would love to see Ice and the 1st Motorsailer, etc. Also, can we view an equipment list for Ice?? We are a few months away from placing an order and visiting Seahorse.
Thank you, davidjpalmer@aol.com |
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Don have you any sketches and/or drawings of your ketch rig you can share Phillp phillp@speedweb.com.au |
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OOpps....my main mast is on the cabin top, about 16.5ft back from the bow...not the pilot house as I suggested below....
Lifetime sailing including 1990 BOC Singlehanded Around World Race...many Antarctic sailing expeditions....lived together alone in a box in Antarctica for a year. |
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What a great subject.....boats are always a compromise.
First it would be a challeng to learn to sail on a Duck...so the standard rig has some merit if you come from a power boat life or it is your first boat...if you know how to sail you would never choose the standard rig unless you want the flopper stoppers...that is the first compromise....Floppers are great and hard to beat..this standard rig will help push you along with the motor but would be very difficult to sail you home without an engine as it is totaly unbalanced with the wind forward of the beam and could easily round up with strong winds from behind the beam if you had no motor to assist steerage.. Putting the standard mast at the front of the pilot house is the best option if you want an emergency sailing rig that is balanced and has a chance of sailing the boat home when your engine is out.....forget the flybridge...and the Floppers are a challenge ...but not impossible.I would fit a traditional headsail furling system and a traditional furling boom....but I am a sailor. Then you have Bills Motor sailor option which is pleanty of sail...and quite ballanced so will do quite well....Again I would use traditional headsail furlig gear and a furling boom which is more conventional and any sailor probably would but Bills system works and is quite good value..It will sail you home with ease I wanted the works..floppers,get me home sailing in any condition including 60kts in the southern Ocean...though not sure about running in big seas.....interestingly I am certain the hull will sail OK if we loose the engine...so we have a ketch rig with a 45ft main mast on the pilot house and the standard mast as the mizzen...to hold the floppers ...we have a furling main boom which works well..and a flybridge....furling headsail and a heavy staysail...so it is very much a traditional 50/50 motor sailor. Our biggest problem will be trying to load up the engine so we do not polish the boar...but that is another compromise,.... The whole setup is adding about US$38,000 to the boat all up ...rigs are being made in Australia then shipped to SeaHorse so if nothing else we will be a different DUCK.. Having spent 156 days sailing solo round the world in a very neat sailing boat I am very excited to retire into a 462 Ketch and it is great to see all the opinions about Duck rigs....it's horses for coarse...they will all do somethig ...the Junks are the simplest and sail well if the mast is in the right position...not for me though...and we are all wanting diferent things...I am happy with mine...! Silence is golden...unless you want to get home.... Lifetime sailing including 1990 BOC Singlehanded Around World Race...many Antarctic sailing expeditions....lived together alone in a box in Antarctica for a year. |
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I am Mark Dallman and I own the original Duck now called ARK. I bought a bargain sail and plan to experiment with it. I tried it once in a stiff breeze and was able to make headway but the pvc battens are too flexible. It's about 125 square feet. I want at least a steadying sail but alittle help from the wind would be nice also. I'd put up a picture but I haven't figured out how to do it yet.
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Hi Robert,
I had a lengthy discussion with a veteran sailer who sailes out of Marblehead MA. About the merits of a motorsailer especially used on a vessle such as the 46-2. I e-mailed Bill and asked a few questions. He said that a rig 48'works will with the 462 duck.Providing much more power that the regular steadying sails. Is the 48'the big rig? Not sure. Anyway my boat will be in the future but I very much want the full sail rig.Hay with the way fuel is going I'll take all the kelp I can get. The same sailer had a scary thought, What if they start to ration diesel fuel sometime in the future except for commercial and emergency use. How happy would people be to have a $400,000.00 party dock boat. Maybe you can explain what option seahouse has in re. to rigs,. Bill explain that the sail rig is , as I said, 48' with genoa available and that they add ballast per spec. Thanks. Bob |
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Just for fun I sketched an equal height schooner rig on the DD462 and thought it could be a good solution for paravane placement, sailing ability, and sail handling for us aging ex-sailors. I drew in a gaff-headed foremast to achieve a greater sail area. I know the DD is NOT a sailboat but believe from years of sailing experience that the DD could benefit in range (motorsailing) and get-home ability.
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Enough waffling, and back to the big motorsailer rig. Given that I am the first for the big rig, as a fall back position I am welding in the supports for poles. I have had poles before and they are a royal PITA to retreive and depoly, so I am really hoping that the bigger sails will do the trick.
Bill and Bheuler are now considering moving the mast further forward to the leading edge of the pilothouse. |
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Claudius,
A full sail rig is an option from SeaHorse. This is a taller mast in the same location as the balanced rig. Additional winches are part of this set-up. Additional ballast is added as well. Bill encourages people to get this but I believe only one person has, maybe more. It is a $20k option. Flopper stopers are not an option when using the full Motor Sailor rig. Flybridge would also be discouraged as well. Hugh |
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An option that I would like G. Buehler or Bill to address is to increase the lenght of the original mast design of the 462, increase the lenght and roach of the "main", and increase the sail size of the staysail a bit. Perhaps adding sail area would improve the sailing characteristics of the DD, or perhaps it would only make the Duck heel with the wind and not move at all...
Another thought: have anyone experimented with a spinaker as an additional emergency backup on this design? Regards, claudius |
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I have now waffled back to the balanced rig per hull 2. As it is unlikely that I will operate in sail only mode, I just cannot justify the cost of the big motorsailer rig, with the incremental gain in propulsion over the balanced rig. In any case there is still the inability to sail close to the wind.
I would love to be proven wrong on this, but cannot afford to gamble the dollars to find out. |
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John,
Interesting point of two masts. Bill, I know this gets away from a production boat, but what about a junk rig? (and price of course) |
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Neil, good to see you have joined up! I have been thinking about ya'll, just haven't taken time to write. I have considered your early comments about George's sail-assist rig (at one time you were thinking about changing the mast location) and came up with the idea of adding another a forward mast, possibly un-stayed for a junk rig. This would seem to keep the good aspects of the current assisit rig and help with sailing ability. Again, good to see you made it!
John |
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Hi all,
I have George’s stabilizing rig. I like the rig and with a good beam breeze, it works well. Not enough canvass though. Also, trying to use sail alone, the main is useless. It just makes the boat head straight into wind. May suit heaving too though. The jib is a much bigger sail but the centre of effort to too far aft. It too tries to make the boat turn into wind, but with full opposite rudder, it is possible to make some headway. Our trials showed that with a 12 knot wind, we could make about 2 knots and aim for a continent. Anything small may be harder to get to! I have thought that a sheet block attached further forward on the boat would give more control. Personally, if I were to build the boat again, I would put up a full size ketch rig. (I am still considering fitting some sort of a forward mast, leaving the existing mast and f/s rig.) There’s no doubt that a Duck would never win any sailing races, but with a clean bum and her selnder beam , there is no reason why she could save you a lot of fuel downwind, and negate the need for F/S in a reach. Hope this helps Neil Laubach DD4801 “Makena” |
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Bill
Any pics or drawings of the balanced rig pole supports? Robert Bob, See my post in "Flopper Stopper Rig Questions". |
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BILL KIMLEY Forum Moderator, Seahorse Marine, Zhuhai, China  |
Neil Laubach, DD-48, did quite a bit of on the water research on the sailing abilities of the traditional Diesel Duck rig. I hope he comments here.
I remember he was not happy with the sail only performance. Based on his experience we developed a more balance rig for David Nagles 462#2. I'm measuring for sails today. However, our experience with George's traditional rig in the motorsailing mode was very good. For some reason, not fully understood by me, rigs that do not point well in the sail only mode seem to point fine, up to 30 degrees or a bit better, in the motorsailing mode. Maybe it has something to do with the engine generated water flow over the keel. Brian Saunders, who is buying DD-382#1, showed us how to brace the poles in the up position when the mast was not inline using PVC tubing. It worked fine, so far, on 462#1. |
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