|
Go
|
New
|
Find
|
Notify
|
Tools
|
Reply
|
|
I mentioned in the Typhoon report about our very hot engine room and some Hot air getting into the Pilot house...so now that we have finaly speant a few days at sea on ICE I can update my observations.
The engine room got VERY hot at times 46 degrees C . The incoming ventilation is more than enough ...with the standard SHM Fan and My extra Blower turned on ,I create a positive air pressure in the watertight engine room ...but I found the ER is not air tight. Some hot air was traveling up beside the manual bilge pump line ( the pump is in the pilot house) and blowing into the pilot house, then down into the saloon...not good...till we temperarily plugged the hole. A permanent fix is easy. With just the SHM inlet fan on the incoming air flow is OK...but I turn on my extra 150 cfm blower as needed ....often...as it sends a shaft of new air straight down to the bottom of the engine room and on the opposite side to the standard fan blowing new air into the top of the ER. The 10mm EVA Foam wrap around the SS tube taking the hot air up through the PH works very well at keeping the heat out of the PH...I did find that with a 46 degree ER the Galley Bulkhead was getting warm and the PH floor too... The ER only got to those Temps when The John Deere was at 2000 RPM..Pyro about 620...and outside about 29-30 degrees...so Not too bad at all. at 1800 rpm , my best tourque setting and usual cruise revs. ER temps would vary from 38 to 42C depending on Outside temps. The noise levels are all good and very livable...sorry no numbers but all good. Any way the big problem was the large amount of heat coming off the dry part of the exhaust. There is some Fibreglass wrapping around it but it is not effective...the good news about this is that it is easy to fix with a dedicated specialised custom made engine exhaust blanket.I am in the process of having one made now. The second part that would help is getting more hot air out...not so easy, as My current 4 inch out blower is all that can be used and realistically this is sized about right for a 462 engine room so I can live with this. The other great feature that SHM have as standard is a two way switch on the standard ER in Blower.....realy handy when you shut down..open the engine room door...turn both fans to suck air out and you pull all the cool air from the cabin, in through the Engine room to cool it down. Another neat feature we can use on ICE with our modification of moving the SHM inlet fan to the top of the ER ( rather than on the PH bulkhead)allows us to Aircondition the ER if needed. The ER vent tunnel has a door in the pilot house...all we do is turn the PH aircon on and open that door....the air then sucks out of the PH into the engine room rather than from outside.....We could do the same in a raging storm if we were worried about sucking water or salt spray into the engine room. I am confident the new Blanket will solve most if not all the issues by keeping the heat in the exhaust and then out. The Fibreglass tape was not enough. ICE has a great ER, all we could wish for. happy Lifetime sailing including 1990 BOC Singlehanded Around World Race...many Antarctic sailing expeditions....lived together alone in a box in Antarctica for a year. |
||||
|
well we finally had ICE out for a run on the river and I was quite impressed....John Deer smooth as...very quiet...prop puring and giving some very impressive push...but will not confirm anything yet as some guages still yet to calibrate but I was very impressed...the interesting thing was to finally be in the engine room with all the blowers running.
The large "Radiator" inlet fan is good for a couple of reasons...first if it ever fails there is a BIG hole to allow natural ventilation....when running it spreads air from the deges out into the engine room but has little push down! which was a surprise but it was OK.....the 100mm jabsco 250 cfm out up through the pilot house is good though I discovered some restrictions that were choking it to a 70mm diamiter?? loosing nearly half the free flow surface area....which I have now sorted and it will end up at about 85mm which is acceptable...100 would have been better...the thing with any blower is that they will push heaps of free flowing air, BUT...you can stop the lot by putting your hand lightly over the hole...it has no power...so any restriction is a majour downgrade. Anyway the extra 75 mm jabsco 150cft air inlet is very powerfull and I feel may be as strong as the "radiator" inlet....it pushes cold air from the top of the engine room right down to the engine mounts...I was impressed...so we now have two Air in vents....one out and ofcoarse the engine and gen. also sucking out. I will keep my fingers crossed the first time we run in hot weather, but I am now confident that "ICE" will have the correct amount of air in and out required for a "proper" engine room. We should be fully opperational in March next year so will give you all the numbers then. Lifetime sailing including 1990 BOC Singlehanded Around World Race...many Antarctic sailing expeditions....lived together alone in a box in Antarctica for a year. |
||||
|
Has there been any improvement in engine room venting after reviewing the data from Randal?
A simple improvement would be to baffle the standard input as recommended by Don, and a larger capacity fan on the ER ceiling. This may not be the solution to the problem but would be a big help Robert |
||||
|
Hi...The water ingress concern is probably a factor of the areas I hope to sail in one day, a place many people do NOT want to go...I think what Seahorse now have for the cockpit inlet vent is similar to many trawler builders....and it works....but personally I like the inlet Fan Bill uses and reversable is excellent...I just think it works much better mounted down at the engine room rather than at the inlet grill....so maybe latter when the boat is delivered you just drop it down...wires should be long enough...then fit a round piece of plywood to fill the hole and leave the top open and you have what I have??? The jabsco 4" hot air out is about as big as you can suck up the 4" tube anyway so not sure if that needs modifying...I'm happy with that....the engine will suck air out and the existing outlet should be OK...I really think half the battle with heat in China/Phil. is just the ambient hot air and water outside in the tropics....makes life challenging?? Get south ..it's cooler!
Lifetime sailing including 1990 BOC Singlehanded Around World Race...many Antarctic sailing expeditions....lived together alone in a box in Antarctica for a year. |
||||
|
Randall and I discussed how the cockpit input is constructed as well and your suggestion of a blanking plate is a necessity.
At this point in the construction, perhaps a cheap and cheerful improvement would be to install a bigger/more powerful S blade auto type fan on the PH ceiling, and a U shaped duct over the cockpit intake to address your water ingress concern. Insulating the PH table through pipe is a great idea and I am going to do this as well. Thanks for the idea |
||||
|
Hi Philip...just to clarify the 4" pipe through the table support in the pilot house up out of the engine room is fitted with an exhaust blower...not an inlet. On ICE we will have 1/2inch foam insulation covered with ultraleather held by velcro covering the pole so the heat does not move into the pilot house in summer and in winter we will remove the wrap.
On the 462's a simple thing you can do to increase the flow of the inlet fan by 20% is to fill in the top of the mount holding the fan...for those that have a seahorse boat you will see that you have the air coming in through the cockpit vent.....then you will see that the fan is mounted behind this to pull the air through the fan and supposedly down down into the engine room.......in reality however the air going through the fan hits the bulkhead behind it and some goes down into the engine room...BUT...some also goes vertically UP and over the fan mount to be returned to the front side of the fan again to pass through the fan again/repeat/repeat etc...you just lost up to 20% of your fan power into the engine room!as the air is just circulating? All it takes is a bit of plywood to cover the top hole to stop the air circulating and direct ALL the air DOWN into the engine room.Bingo at least 20% more air. I have told this to Seahorse a 18months ago but no change. My inlet vent not only keeps all the water out if the cockpit is flooded, but with the Fan mounted in the top of the engine room rather than behind the cockpit inlet vent ...I can open the side door of the chart table in the pilot house to provide inlet air and with the airconditioner on, very cold air if it got that bad....but with the fan mounted behind the cockpit vent,if you open that door it will just blow air into the pilot house? Our boat was launched last week and it is all very exciting....they are doing a fantastic job...Seahorse have a very talented team of workers who want to build a very good boat and that is just what I am getting....they have done everything I have hoped for and now we are on the home run. If it is HOT outside it will be hot inside the engine room, even with a lot of air, but every bit helps. Lifetime sailing including 1990 BOC Singlehanded Around World Race...many Antarctic sailing expeditions....lived together alone in a box in Antarctica for a year. |
||||
|
Robert
You are not the only person who questions the engine room air inlet through the pilot house table support. From JD depending on engine selected Engine air flow between 175-300 ft3/min(4.9 m3/min) No wonder Don changed the vent system on ICE Suggest everone seriously interested in a Diesel Duck investigates all aspects of design and equipment installation. For example check: John Deere/ Important Installation Information AG-01 to AG-31 Phill/Soverignisle 50 YEARS OF MECHANICAL ENGINEERING WITHOUT SAILING ARROUND THE WORLD/ONLY AUSTRALIA |
||||
|
Where I come from, 1.87 gal./hour ain't bad!
John |
||||
|
Hey:
You only got 3.25 MPG which ain't good. Any ideas why? maybe slowing to 5 or 5.5 kts would help? Maybe more pitch to the prop? Maybe "falling off" some so the sails could help? 3.25 mpg is an expensive cruising consumption and I'm sure can be improved. George
|
||||
|
Thanks for the report and temp data.
Sounds like 120F in the ER in ambient conditions of 86F. TWL is kicking 125F around right now as the upper limit for the batteries and 50% reduced lifespan at this temperature. I have not verified this as of yet. In any case, higher ambient temperatures are not uncommon, and in fact it was 39C here in Vancouver yesterday, and 32C is a normal day for me at home. Increasing the ER airflow remains one of my main issues to resolve. |
||||
|
Hi All
Dora Mac departed the fuel dock at Sai Kung in Hong Kong at 4:00 PM on Saturday July 7th headed for Subic Bay Philippines. We took on 1800 liters (475.56 gallons)at $4.40 HKD or about $2.14 USD per gallon. We arrived at the entrance to the Subic Bay at 9:45 AM on Wednesday July 11th and the dock at the Subic Bay YC at 11:20 AM after doing some hunting for the entrance. That is 91 hours and 20 minutes dock to dock. We burned 171.2 gallons of fuel per FloScan and the distance was 556 NM for an average of just over 6 knots. We had winds and seas that varied from headon to directly off our starboard beam. We did play with the foresail a little which added to stabilization but because the wind was 35 degrees to starboard at the time it just barely held the sail in place and did not add to our speed. I did get some temperatures one time only. Air coming into the intake duct in the aft cockpit. 86F ER Ceiling 120F Salon Ceiling 92F PH Ceiling 98F Eng Alternator 129F Balmar 195F We discovered the belt was slipping and tightened it. Eng Turbo at exhaust housing 177F Incoming Keel Cooled coolant 116F Outgoing Keel Cooled coolant 147F Insulated exhaust stack before water injection top. 116F Bottom 112F ER air exhaust & pilothouse table support 100F The crew consisted of Bill Kimley, Dean Phelps 382-03, Jose Bogay Jr our Filipino crew member, and Ruth and I. With five people on board Ruth and I took the 8 to midnight watch, then Dean until 2, Jose until 4, then Bill until daylight. The ride was fairly smooth though I remained sick most of the trip. I did take Stugeron and never became violently sick but I sure felt better laying down. Thanks to the rest of the crew for all their work. Randal Johnson |
||||
|
Take a look at the ER temp discussions currently on TWL. (Trawler World List)
I remain concerned about air flow into my ER, and while relocating the house bank and inverters is a help, the starting battery banks and other electronic bits cannot tolerate heat. What to do? |
||||
|
Thaks for the link, as I was working from datasheets with conflicting temperature ratings of 40 and 50C.
This tech note rates the components at 50C and per note 3 "will in general function" to 60C. I would prefer to stay within the rated 50C limit. Note that this is temperature of the electronic components, which, when under load will be at significantly higher temp than the ER ambient temp. The power transformers are big heat generators and fitted with a heat sink and fan. They will shut the inverter down when they hit 75C which is not an unforseen situation under load in 35C ambient temperatures. In the competitive game of specsmanship, this 3000W inverter is rated at 25C. It will never see that temperature in this part of the world, or maybe not even in summertime BC boating. Today, tied to the dock in Hong Kong, you are already derated to 88% Any derating over 50C or at a stretch 60C is moot. At 50C it is down to 62% of output, and at 60C at 36% of rated output. The once adaquate inverter will very suddenly become woefully inadaquate, and 2 may be required. 35C days are not uncommon, and given the heat shedding machinery in the ER I do not doubt that component (not ER) temp of 50C or more will be the reality. Lets not forget that batteries, alternators, and all other electronic components are heat sensitive. 40C rating of electronic components is a common spec. All this bodes for more ER ventilation, and a makes the case for moving the inverter(s) out of the ER. I will be very interested to hear about your ER temp data experience when you reach Manila Have a good trip, and best wishes to you and Ruth |
||||
|
Robert
I found this information from Victron about their inverter/charger operating temperatures. http://www.victronenergy.nl/TechnicalInfo/TechPDF/Outpu...and%20efficiency.pdf It is 7:30 AM here and the outside temperature is 85F, the ceiling in the ER is 93 and the water the aircon is bringing in the boat is 91. The information from the site above indicates that with increased temps the inverter and charging ability drops to reduce heat and at 149F is is zero. Only when we are underway will I be able to monitor the ER temperature in this tropical invironment. Randal |
||||
|
Inverter temp is one of my main concerns, followed by alternator(s) and other electronic devices in the ER.
The inverter is rated for 40C and my past experience with Xantrex is that I killed one with high temp and this was in BC where it is not nearly as hot as here in SE Asia or the S. States. I see Don talks about a larger ER mounted input fan and would like to know more about the model and flow rate etc. I imagine that one could use 2 x 12V automotive fans but with higher efficency S blades, one in the standard location, and one on the ER ceiling over the input. Or large 220V squirrel cage fan in the ER? Comments? |
||||
|
Hi All
Ruth and I are in Hong Kong with Dora Mac at the Hebe Haven YC. Hebe Haven is in Pak Sha Wan and is about 25 minutes away from the Southern tip of Kowloon by bus and MTR with one change of trains on the MTR. The passage from imigration on the Pearl River to Gold Coast Marina took six hours on June 6th, from 11:00 AM to 5:00 PM. We spent the night there and left the next morning at 6:00 AM, arriving in Hebe Haven at 10:00 AM. I was so excited I forgot to pay attention to the the ER heat but I did go in there numerous times and I remember it being hot. I now have an IR sensor and I just checked the ER out. Sitting at the dock with shore power and the two aircons running at 8:48 PM it is about 80 F in most of the boat and I expect it's cooler in the aft cabin with the door closed and Ruth resting. I think the thermostat is set at 78F back there. Most of the ER was 100F. That is because there are at least three heat generators in there even at the dock. The A/C chiller pump was 139, the Victron Inverter was 110, and the water heater was 108. The ER fan that goes up through the pilothouse table 4" stainless support exhaust only. The larger automotive radiator type fan at the rear of the pilothouse has a two way switch and will run in both directions. Underway we had both running with the larger one putting air into the ER. I have some remote temperature sensors that will be installed at selected places throughout the boat, one being the ER ceiling. SHM installs a temperature alarm there. On our run to Subic in a few weeks I'll have some better numbers but I don't anticipate a problem with as much air as goes through the ER. By the way, everything seems to be in fine working order since we arrived in HK. I broke a handle on the ER door but got it fixed at a local machine shop. I didn't know it was painted brass and when I went to adjust it with the torque of a steel handle I wrung off the threaded end. We have had downpours of rain but not one drop has entered the boat. Randal |
||||
|
Any emperical data on engine room temp yet when running in high ambient temperatures
Randal - you out there? |
||||
|
Anyone got any imperical data on just how hot the ER gets during operation in 30+C ambient temperatures?
|
||||
|
Engine room ventilation was the first thing we reworked last year...we have a fully watertight engine room for safety....so have an extra in vent on the starbourd side of the pilot house with 3inch blower ducted to the floor... on the aft in vent we sealed the water trap grill so the air has to go up before turning down...this means we can fill the cockpit with water and it will not down flood....then we moved the big fan to the engine room....the exhaust blower is up through the pilot house....this is now all approved to Aust. survey requirements. I have a constant temp guage for the engine room and can turn on blowers as needed.....If you follow setsail/dashews...you will see that the biggest problem can sometimes be running the ER too cold...but you always need good AIR.
Lifetime sailing including 1990 BOC Singlehanded Around World Race...many Antarctic sailing expeditions....lived together alone in a box in Antarctica for a year. |
||||
|
I just need to know how hot it gets in the engine room with both engines running in high ambient conditions.
Anyone know? |
||||
|
On the 280 Ft Cruise ship I served on as 2nd mate, we had engine room vertical square shaft with fans at the top creating an up draft. If you hit the engine room ventilation button it would kill the electric fans, and a steel trap door would fall by gravity and close. The door is held open by an electro magnet and a light piece of chain attached to the magnet the other end attached to the trap door.
Capt. Mark Niefer |
||||
|
Deere and genset will require about 170 cfm alone, plus additional air flow for cooling batteries, alternators, electronics, etc.
Fan flow rates are still unknown. Does anyone have any emperical experience with engine room temperatures operating in tropical climates? |
||||
|
|
BILL KIMLEY Forum Moderator, Seahorse Marine, Zhuhai, China  |
We have modified the engine room ventilation by:
1) Adding a 4' blower to the piped exhaust which goes to the pilothouse top, and; 2) At John Milicie's suggestion we now have a two way switch controlling the aft pilothouse vent fan so it can blow in (during operation) or out (to evacuate heat faster when working in the engine room with the door open). |
|||
|