I've been going back and forth on this subject and now looks like I may not go with the standard package for a couple of reasons.

1. C series has weaknesses when trying to network with NMEA devices and computers. (I plan to use the larger E Series and drop the separate video monitor. Video feeds would go directly into the E-Series screen.)
2. I would prefer to have as many components NMEA 2000 compliant as possible. (Only the monitor is with the Raymarine set-up.)
3. I want to add Sirius Sat weather and AIS (seahorse only installs standard system or has outside contractors do different or more complex system. Sirius weather is much more detailed than SSB downloads and AIS is required in Pacific Northwest for ships over a certain size, I believe 150feet. Point being most large ships will show up with heading, speed and name not just a green blob.)

If I go with the GPS, Depth/Speed, Solid State Compass from Maretron all these devices will be NMEA2000. Than it is just the Radar, AIS antenna and autopilot that would be NMEA0183. NMEA2000 has a lot of pluses for integration, simplifying wiring, redundancy and later upgrades or expansion.

The standard Seahorse system is very nice and well thought out with high quality gear but there are some key features, for me, that it just does not have.

I'm wondering how other owners, or owners to be, are coming down on this subject, as well as opinions on NMEA2000.

I will have the boat in the Pacific Northwest so AIS and Sirius are HUGE benefits to have. In other areas they would be less of a benefit.


Hugh

Hello;
I too have been thinking about electronics, trying to wait as long as possible because the technology changes so quickly. The full glass network certainly is the trend in aviation and now in the marine market as well. I have been watching the Garmin 4000 series products with interest. They may use a proprietary network however, so that the whole nav suite would need to be Garmin. I would like AIS and sat weather also. I still have time and work to do before this decision can be made.
John
SD46203

I too am pondering this issue and would appreciate input from others.

I have not been too keen on Raymarine from day one and prefer Furuno primarily due to their reputation with radar. Furuno is to bring out a 3rd gen NavNet system and I await more info before making a final decision.
I do not see that Furuno has a PC black box radar - anyone know as info on what is in the pipeline is limited over here

Personal preference for Furuno aside, the credit allowed by Seahorse if not using the standard Raymarine package plus additional sub-contractor costs makes a case to stick what can be installed by Seahorse and using a PC based system running in parallel to the Raymarine system.

Funds are limited so current thoughts are to:
Upgrade C series Raymarine display size to 12 inch.
May stick with the standard 2 Kw Radar and spend the 900 towards a Si-tex 4 Kw PC unit, but remain undecided if this is false economny.

Delete Raymarine sounder and substitute Echo Pilot Platinum series black box forward looking sonar.
Video output to PC screen (or E-series)

Heading sensor(s) for radar tracking function. Note that the standard Raymarine package will not allow radar tracking and this sensor is required.

Run a PC system in parallel with Raymarine. Integrate with Si-tex 4 Kw PC radar and Costal Explorer's new radar package, 2nd GPS, Echo Pilot sonar, AIS.

Upgrading to E-series would allow use of the video inputs for sonar, and ease of systems integration, however I am not sure it is worth the incremental cost given that there is a stand alone PC system

Now just where to put the PC?

My list right now would be;

1. E Series 12" Display
2. Raytheon 2kw Radar
3. Maretron NEMA 2000 (GPS, Rate Gyro Compass, Depth-Speed-Water Temp, and possibly ultrasonic windspeed-direction-barometer and humidity) The Maretron compass is not really a gyro compass it uses solid state accelerometers and its info can be used by the E-Series and RayMarine PC softward for MARPA/DARPA.
4. Raymarine network switch to connect to PC via ethernet. I would put the Raymarine software in place to simplify PC navigation-radar and weather info.
5. No SSB.
6. AIS and Sirius satellite Weather.
7. Globalstar Satellite phone (portable with installed antenna).

(Now this is what I would like to have.) I haven't heard back on what the credit is but I assume it would be the cost of the equipment plus the labor saved not installing it. This will also affect my decision.

The C series has been upgraded to allow for Sirius Satellite weather but the E Series still has pluses. Going from C to E by itself doesn't change the installation much from what they normally do. The cutout is just a different size.

UPDATE:

I talked with Raymarine about the E vs. C series. The differences that I think do matter.

1. Connecting with computers is greatly simplified on E series.
2. With E series graphics can be shared in two directions and it can function as a full tandem display. C series just passes some, not all, of the data back and forth.
3. For AIS you need to connect separately to the PC. For E series you do not.

Since everything else is the same (wiring to and from the devices) if you plan to work on a PC, especially using RayMarine software, the E Series makes a lot more sense. The Raymarine tech guy I spoke with says the C Series is really targeted to smaller boats and that most people that use PCs get the E Series. From the difference in functionality I can understand why.

I would think SeaHorse could install an E Series pretty easily in place of a C Series. It is only the cut-out that is different. You would than need to install the Raytheon network switch and wire the Ethernet where you want it to go. I was thinking about doing that part wireless. Though it would take more power. (Those items would be done either in Hong Kong or back in the states)


Hugh

My wish list is similar to Hugh's but rather than use a E-series, these sensors will feed to a laptop PC.

Maretron heading sensor, GPS, and weather station.
http://www.maretron.com/products/overview.php

AIS has been recently discussed on Panebo and given the results, I am looking at a Milltech 2 channel c/w GPS AIS. Cost 500.00 USD. May be overkill and the single channel is only 190.00
http://www.milltechmarine.com/SR161.htm

Echo Pilot has a nice forward looking,black box,sonar that can take the place of the Raymarine sounder unit. Cost is 880 Sterling, FOB Hong Kong
http://www.echopilot.com/products/forward_looking_sonar..._platinum_video.aspx

Si-tex black box 4 Kw radar to PC. Costal Explorer is beta testing their radar overlay software now and I will upgrade to this Rev when available.

No Sirrus radio here in Asia so a moot point until/if I get back to Canada. SSB is a difficult call given modern alternatives, but I have decided to stay with a SSB for now.

Rather than a hand held sat phone, current thought is to use a Follow-me-TV antenna for both TV functions and as a antenna tracker for a Immersat BGAN voice/data system. This will give me weather data when Sirris is not available.
In any case the sat TV function will be nice to have.

The standard package is lacking key sensors for advanced functions and it Seems that the cost to upgrade from a C-8 to an E-12 is a high price to pay when a PC will do the same job.
The standard Raymarine C-8 package could be regulated to backup and used primarily for sonar/depth display

Still pondering where to fit the big PC screen as I got spoiled with a 19" screen on my old boat. Even sticking with a C-8 there is no room at the helm for a biggish LCD display.

Bob,

I have thought a little about just using a PC. One of the pluses of the E Series is that it lets you bring in multiple signal types and feed the PC (as a back-up with just Ethernet.) A good rugged laptop is a couple grand nowadays which isn't a lot less than the small E-Series which is less prone to Gate's syndrome of freezing just when something big is going on.

Though a two PC system has pluses as well.


Hugh

Hugh

The blue screen of death is a concern, hence the Raymarine as a backup. I see the point of the networking advantages of the E series.
Would a small E-8 for backup and ease of integration, plus a PC make economic sense?

In everyday use the Raymarine would be basically a stand alone sounder/sonar, or maybe a radar only with the PC doing yeoman duty as radar, nav, sonar, AIS, ER video, and dear knows what else technology will bring. In the event of the BSOD, one can switch all functions back to the E series.

I am in no rush to buy a duplicate set of electronic charts, and unlike other formats, the Navionics cartridges are difficult to crack (not that I would even consider such a thing).

Given that Raymarine is Navionics only, can the E series pass the chart data to the PC so that both can run real time in parallel. This would be cleaner than having a card reader for the PC and allow an immediate redundancy in the event of the BSOD.

Hugh,

With regards to the Maretron compass (SSC200?), how will it be mounted to deal with the substantial amount of ferrous material in your boat? I thought that was why Bill was offering the Comnav GPS compass.

In regards to the AIS, we echo your comments on its value in the PNW. With the many tugs and tows, and large vessels being able to "peak" around islands to see their approach is valuable. We use Coastal Explorer running on a notebook computer to drive our boat (out Simrad chart/plotter is the backup) and it integrates the AIS information nicely in its display.

Marcia & Kurt Hanson
SD462-04

The Maetron uses a magnetometer to determine magnetic north and accelerometers and angular sensons to determine pitch and rate of turn. The magnetometer is the item of concern with our steel hulls and there is a calibration procedure and specific mounting procedures to be followed.
Other technologies include a fluxgate, and GPS.

I have discovered that the Millitronics AIS kit is manufactured by SmartRadio in Shenzhen and they have a couple of other interesting items like a radio modem, and low cost AIS modem/transponder. It is not clear if the transponder is FCC approved and Milltronics is not offering it for sale. I note that Class B AIS are not yet approved and are for sale in other markets as well. OTOH it has Chinese CCS approval, and I am not in the USA, and would prefer to be seen as well as see other AIS transmitters. See:
http://smartradio.diytrade.com/sdp/96914/4/pl-149552.html

Might be a possibility for a group buy. I will likely buy the AIS modem wether FCC approved or not.

Robert

Marcia and Kurt,

I spoke with Maretron on this subject and they stated very strongly that their compass would work very well in a steel boat with the following requirements.

1. No power lines within 18" (AC or DC).
2. It must be swung (calibrated) with their DSM module. You don't need to have the DSM module on the boat permanently, but you need to do this the first time or the compass will display to much deviation.

Bill has had problems with this compass. While I assume it met the first requirements I don't know if he did the second part or not.

Maretron stresses that they have a lot of steel boat installations with no problems.

They are very helpful so feel free to give them a buzz. For MARPA and DARPA to work properly on the Radars some type of stabilized compass (gyro or accelerometers) are reccomended.


Hugh

Hugh,

Good information. Since you're earlier in the firing line than us, we'll probably wait until you shake the bugs out before deciding. Are you having all of your electronics installed at the factory?

I have been working with the yard to determine what they are willing to do versus what an outside contractor will do.

The Maretron shouldn't be problem on the install as it is what is in my purchase contract. However, they are hesitant to do much modifications beyond what is in the contract and their standard package.

I also have yet to confirm the deduct value. This will affect my decision. At the least I would like to switch to the small E Series in place of the C series. It makes a lot more sense for a cruising boat than the C Series does. The only difference is the cut-out size. I will post more as I learn it.


Hugh

I will keep off the electronics package as it is such a personal decision for all the bells and whistles you can get ...may want...or really need...but for me I am not such a big fan of interfacing everything on the boat into one system...think fire-wall on computers...so think "stand alone" for some of the basics on a boat, then if something goes wrong it won't all go wrong!...I actually had to look around to get the old Pathfinder series radar Chart plotters as the are very good and now basic compared to the E series...but that is fine for me...they just happened to be very cheap-run outs ... which was fine too!!

As for compasses....if you can afford it GO THE GPS COMPASS...it will be your best friend on the boat and the problem of what really is north is solved....there are some very BIG stray deviations on the 462 due to the steel/ electricals under the console-helm station and instruments in the console and any magnetic compass is going to be challenged. The standard stereo speakers above the helm station should be dedicated marine " de-magnitised" ?? type not car stereo type and I would not put speakers so close(right above) to the compass anyway...our speakers go in the aft quarters of the pilot house.Also the BEST position for the pilot house Mag compass is on the centre line with the card magnets above the window line...if you know compasses and if you want to give it the best chance in a very difficult enviroment this is the ONLY place..

I have swung a few compasses using a pelorus on a distant object which is a challenge but if you have a GPS compass it would be a lot simpler, so not only do you get correct readings for your autopilots/radar etc if one is fitted, but you get the perfect aid to writing up your own regular Deviation card for your magnetic compass.The deviation can change regularly...especially with a new boat when you start banging and crashing on your first voyages...so your deviation card could be updated very easily....leave the magnet positions/sizes etc to your professional compass swinger...but check it yourself after that against your GPS compass.

The maretron is supposed to be OK but 462-2 had some challenges with it and ditched it for the GPS compass.....if it was a choice between the flatscreen TV or the Freezer against the GPS compass for budget-if you intend to go serious cruising....go the GPS compass every time and forget the TV/freezer...I can be sure you will never regret it...save up for the freezer latter

There are a lot of plusses to a NEMA 2000 system, redundancy being one of them. There isn't much to fail in the backbone as it is just wiring. For instance if you had two compasses plugged into it devices would run off the primary one unless it failed than they would automatically go the back-up device. I agree that complexity isn't great at sea but NEMA 2000 is designed to reduce it by not having proprietary wiring, connections and programming for each device.

Having said that, suppliers and builders haven't really bought in to this so for me it is about what can I get from seahorse that is the best value and still provides what I need.

To that effect I have just requested a switch from the C-Series to an E-Series. The E series has a simpler and more feature rich connection to a PC for a very small increase in cost. Like you said on the GPS compass it is money well spent. This is a simple switch as none of the wiring or devices change, just the cut-out shape. Connection with the PC is than fully two way and via ethernet.

The large extra cost to get the exact system that I would want is just too high relative to the gains. (I haven't received a final answer on cost but the information that I have received from other buyers has made this issue rather clear.)

I will add AIS and Sirius Satellite Weather either in Hong Kong or the States if Seahorse won't do it.

Due to concerns about functionality with the Maretron compass, or flux gate for that matter, the GPS compass is probably what I will go with as well.

Hugh

Based on the significant cost benefits to installing the system at the factory I have done the following;

1. E Series 12" upgrade from C Series 8". The Eseries is brighter and has significantly better networking capability. It is also Ethernet based which is a real plus.
2. I will have AIS, satellite phone, cell booster antenna and Sirius satellite weather added either at the yard, in Hong Kong or back in the states. No SSB for me.

3. Backup/planning will be done on PC hooked to E-series running raytech software. This allows full two way communication with the E-series system. I will also probably put in a wireless network so that I can use the laptop hooked to the E-Series anywhere in the boat. It can show its own screen info, upload waypoints or just mirror what is on the E-Series screen. Nice.


This will give me all the capability I need. Not the dream system but it will work very well.


Hugh